Keith Devens .com

I have a real problem with this concept of 'Original Sin' even after many conversations with a christian friend of mine on the subject.

I don't believe a just, fair and loving god (whatever his denomination) would deliver the ultimate punishment to a baby.

Actually, thinking about it, the Vatican issued a statement about this recently ( http://www.lohud.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060205/NEWS02/602050325/1017 ). They have (or are about to) abolished Limbo.

That was a bit of a shock to me, I didn't know the Pope had a hand in writing Gods policies ;-)

You know, I keep telling people that Grace is all there is to Christianity (and all that makes the difference between Christianity and Animism/Buddhism/Islam/...)

I usually run away with insults of "Heretic!" ringing staccato behind me.

What would make them call you a heretic?

You're sounding more like a Calvinist than I would have thought. I'm not meaning to make a statement, more intending to pose the question.

The total depravity of man is certainly a large part of Augustine's legacy. But not all Christians agree with that interpretation. (Heck, the man couldn't count generations, he's allowed to make a few mistakes.)

People have been arguing about this stuff for a long time from Pelagius to Wesley to Irenaeus to Luther. Part of the reason I came to your site a long time ago was because you were a ... well ... a Christian geek like me. But you don't go much into your beliefs.

Just curious where you're coming from here.

Yeah, I'm a little perplexed by this post, too. I've greatly enjoyed the well reasoned and written discussion of religious issues on this blog--that and the scotch discussions. This post reads like the last packet propelled by the last wave of a waning, wee-hour caffiene buzz. I think the fundamental Christian view is that people are saved and go to heaven by having chosen God, not vice versa. We are all chosen by God, because we are all His creations. His love for every person is unfailing and eternal, i.e. Grace. It is a manifestation of God's ultimate divinity that His creation is given not merely life, but free will, whereby we can even turn away from the very source of our lives. This is why despair is the only truly unforgiveable sin--because despair is rejection of faith. So long as we maintain faith in God, we can be redeemed from any state, no matter how low, even from hell itself, through Christ's sacrifice and triumph over death and hell. The Holy Spirit knocks at the doors of our hearts day in and day out; we need only open the door to be received by Heaven. True faith impels us to good works, but works, good or bad, can have many motivations that have little to do with salvation. I'm not really much of a doctrinal scholar, so if I'm headed the wrong way, maybe someone can help us out.

Just curious where you're coming from here.

Yes, I'm a Calvinist (I say so in my about page too).

This post reads like the last packet propelled by the last wave of a waning, wee-hour caffiene buzz.

Well, I wrote it slightly after noon on a Sunday, tried to choose my words carefully, and had been thinking about it since the night before.

I think the fundamental Christian view is that people are saved and go to heaven by having chosen God, not vice versa.

The Bible clearly states that those who are saved were first called by God and were predestined before the creation of the world for salvation.

We are all chosen by God, because we are all His creations. His love for every person is unfailing and eternal, i.e. Grace.

So, even people who God sends to Hell are "chosen" and have God's grace?

This is why despair is the only truly unforgiveable sin--because despair is rejection of faith.

I thought blaspheming the Holy Spirit is the unforgivable sin?

I'm not really much of a doctrinal scholar, so if I'm headed the wrong way, maybe someone can help us out.

I think you are headed the wrong way. I think what really convinced me on these matters is the question of "Who's sins did Christ die and pay for?" If he died for everybody, that means that he died for people who still go to Hell. And that seems to turn the whole thing into nonsense.

But more importantly, Scripture is clear about it, Romans 9 especially. Remember, God hated Esau but loved Jacob even "before [they] were born or had done anything good or bad". It talks about noble and ignoble vessels, and "objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction", and "objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory".

What would make them call you a heretic?

Well, they say I'm trying to trick 'em into going to Hell.

Lemme put it this way:

Romans 7 and 8 were written as one chapter, same breath. To prove it, God left a line of 7 to leak into 8.
So, Paul realises he sins like the Devil himself. Any hope? Yes, through Christ, for "There is therefore, now, no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

And later, when the steady monks had been killed, that verse was changed by people who couldn't believe God was that good. But it was corrected.

See this for more info:

We Suck and There's hope

My apologies for a conclusory critique of the original post and thanks for your very helpful response. I have difficulty with predestination--God's omniscience and the certainty that He has a plan for us are clear, but I have not seen a way to reconcile predestination with free will, repentance, and salvation through faith in Christ (though I acknowledge that such seeming contradictions are within God's power). Can't everyone elect or reject the salvation/grace that is offered to them? Perhaps not, as you've explained, in Calvinist doctrine and perhaps that is God's way. But, e.g., the passage from Mark 3 you linked to, in context, seems supportive of a broader offer of grace: "I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. 29But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin." 30He said this because they were saying, 'He [Jesus] has an evil spirit.'" I don't mean to bait or belabor and I know I've got a lot more reading and praying to do before I can address these issues more fully. Thank you again for making the effort to move discourse and understanding forward.

...but I have not seen a way to reconcile predestination with free will, repentance, and salvation through faith in Christ

I look at it this way: does God know the future? If yes, than we cannot act in a way differently than He knows we will act, whether you choose to call it predestination or not. But we still act in time through our free choices.

Can't everyone elect or reject the salvation/grace that is offered to them? Perhaps not, as you've explained, in Calvinist doctrine and perhaps that is God's way. But, e.g., the passage from Mark 3 you linked to, in context, seems supportive of a broader offer of grace: "I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. 29But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."

If you want to read the passage in that way, it's not an offer but a guarantee of forgiveness. The point of that passage is not that God will forgive all men's sins, but to contrast all the sins of man with the one unforgivable sin.

I don't believe we can debate the argument of the ages (predestination v free will) in this forum. I was very interested in your take. I know I did read your "About" page long ago, but I must have forgotten.

I would like to offer up two thoughts, one a matter of Biblical interpretation and one a matter of meta-physics.

It seems clear to me when I read Romans 9 that Paul is lamenting about the poor showing among his own people. He is answered their charge that God "chose" them. He is saying "God can chose whom he will". He poses hypotheticals, not realities. There are uncountable verses in the Bible which make no sense in a clock work universe. Though clearly, God does interfere on some notable occasions.

Meta-physically, God can perceive that tomorrow I will make "choice X". Just because He gets to see me make the choice, doesn't mean that I did not make it myself. He's still "observer" not "causer" when he perceives what I call "the future".

All mens' sins are forgiven. God has reconciled the world. But the Universalists error is that they fail to appriciate man's desire not to be saved... that is, not to accept the gift freely given (guarenteed).

Ay Uaxe, I have to take exception to your assertion that you are not much of a doctrinal scholar. Your charactorization of the nature of salvation and of God are consistent with what God says throughout the Bible. The Lord says that he stands at our gate and knocks. He neither breaks through anyone's gates unasked, nor refuses anyone the freely given opportunity to open the gate to Him. It is true that hell is the consequence of sin and we are all sinners. Therefore everyone who recieves Divine Judgement goes to hell, but the Lord makes his Divine Mercy available to all. And all who open the gates of their hearts to Divine Love, Mercy, and Grace, recieve it. Which is why the Lord said that not everyone who says to Him "Lord, Lord" will be saved, but rather by their fruits you will know them. For those who recieve love, mercy and grace in their hearts bring forth the fruits of love, mercy and grace. As the Lord said, "freely have you received, freely give." Love and mercy can only flow into us at the rate that we allow it to flow out. These things only come from the Lord, and these things are the Lord. And because the Lord overcame the world and overcame hell, so when the Lord is in our hearts, hell has no power there.