Keith Devens .com

The question is when salvation actually occurs. Does salvation occur after one moment of faith or after a lifetime of faith and following the Lord? You can not separate faith and following (deeds). If we are saved after one moment of faith alone, then you never have to follow the Lord because you will already be saved and what you do after that will matter. If you are saved after a lifetime of faith and following the Lord, you take all you have done to the judgement of God. Saying that we are saved before we have completed our life is like saying the Judge will pronouce the judgment before all the evidence is in. God will allow all the evidence of our life to be entered before a judgment is given. That means what we do will enter into our salvation along with faith. If we have faith then we will follow.

To me, the biggest counter-example for someone who wants to claim that we can only be saved after a lifetime (how long is that? what's the minimum lifetime that can have enough good works for us to have salvation?) of good works is the thief on the cross.

This case is also a counter-example for the Roman Catholic church's insistence on the necessity of baptism as a requirement for salvation, and I know they explain this by saying that he was "as good as baptised" since he wanted to be and would have been if he'd gotten the chance. I think that negates their whole position, but regardless, my question to you is, how do you explain how the thief on the cross can be saved without a lifetime of good works, given the position you've just argued?

It's a shame that you'll never know if you're saved until the moment after you die.

Edoc,
That's not the position of Scripture.

1st John 5:13 "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may KNOW you have eternal life."

Alternate version: It's a shame you'll never know if the position of Scripture is correct until after you die.

That isn't an alternate version (i.e., another equally viable translation) it's the Bizarro one.

Either Scripture is what it claims to be, a revelation from God, or it isn't. If it is then your position is nothing more than a vain sinful opinion (because it denies a truth God has clearly revealed to mankind). If it isn't then your position can be nothing more than vain opinion, with no way of proving what it asserts. In other words, you are in a catch-22. Either your assertion is false, or it is simply a belief you hold to by (blind) faith.

Yes, my position is vain opinion-- and so is yours. Biblical scripture is not a revelation from god and the same goes for any other religious text. All of this gets back to a question of faith, which requires belief in something inherently unprovable.

Maybe you will be able to validate the authority of Scripture and/or the afterlife. But I'm betting you'll have to die first.

Ok, Keith. I see your Ephesians 2:8-9 and raise you Ephesians 2:8-10. And if that's not enough, how about the old chestnut that is Matthew 25:40? The whole paragraph is the reason why the RCC preaches that both faith and good works are required, the latter being a relection of the sincerity of the former. What I think Fr. Cantalamessa is getting at is that the latter is seen as a substitute for the former, and without one, the other is questionable.

And I'll raise you James 2:14-17, and really that entire passage up to v26. The point is that we are not saved by our works, but are called to do good works as a natural part of our faith, and if we don't do good works, it's obvious we don't really have faith. James 2:10 points out that if one fails to follow the law perfectly he is guilty of not following all of it. None of us follow the law perfectly, and are as guilty as if we'd broken every bit of it, which is why we can't be justified by our works and need God's salvation through the perfect works of Jesus Christ. Ephesians 2:8-9, as you quoted, points out that we are saved by God's grace, and not by (our) works, through faith, and even our faith is a gift given by God and is not something we accomplished.

The point is, we cannot be saved by our works or adherence to the law, since we are judged by the law and are guilty of breaking all of it. We are saved by our faith, on the basis of Christ's perfect work and sacrifice, and are called to good works. The point of the passage in James is that our works give evidence to our faith and our salvation. That's why I think James 2:18 is meant to be ironic. "Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works." i.e. without works, what is there to show of our faith?

There's alot of mistakes that are made here (and I'm sure volumes by educated scholars can be written even still) in discussion of the meaning of various passages.

We can view when salvation occurs in different contexts. In fact, if you will allow me a bit of hyperbole, Jesus was the lamb slain "before the foundation of the world". Or possibly you could consider that salvation actually happens (depending on your escatology) on the day of judgment.

Were you saved 2000 years ago when Christ died or at the moment of submersion in baptismal waters or at the moment of your confession or when God counted your faith as righteousness? How about Abraham's salvation?

I can't answer these questions. I can only assume that in some sense all of them are true. Some metaphorically, some theologically, and some literally.

It is not a matter of "when". It is a matter of "cause". We are saved by the sacrifice of Christ. Even our faith doens't save us (that is, faith as a work), but our faith accepts the gift freely given. No Universalism here. Christ saved the world, the world has only to accept salvation.

The gift, recieved, will result in good works, but not in a sinless life. John teaches us that he who claims to be without sin is a liar and commands us to live "in the light" (I believe he means a lifestyle which publicly admits sin, both generally and specifically).

Does this mean that someone with no good works, or suspect works isn't saved even though they claim faith? Yes. But don't confuse effect with cause.

This, to me, answers the baptism question without even needing to write the words out. But I will for the sake of completeness. If Christ redeemed the world and we have only to accept salvation freely given, does baptism save us? Or is baptism the public expression ordained by God for us to announce to the community of faith that we have accepted salvation already recieved? That is baptism is a "rite" and not "magic".

I once attended a baptism that was reassembled later in the day. It was learned that the baptizer failed to say the words "for the remission of your sins". He just said (paraphrase), "Now based on your confession I baptise you in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit." So they had to do it over. MULLIGAN!

As if God was up there with a notepad... "Nope you missed it... GOTCHA!"

I'm reminded of the old "I love Lucy" episode where she finds out that the judge who married them wasn't a judge at the time he performed the cerimony so they "weren't really married". Boy, I can only hope the Heavens aren't run like a 1950s sitcom.

Edoc,
Your position is one that is entirely self-refuting.

You state...

Yes, my position is vain opinion-- and so is yours.

However, in order for the above assertion to have any rational force it would have to be something more than mere subjective opinion. By admitting that your position is vain opinion you are effectively reducing it to nothing more than a personal belief. In other words, in order for you to know (in the rational sense) that my position is mere opinion, you would have to have a foundation for objectively determining truth from falsehood.

As an aside, when you have no objective foundation for knowledge you are left with blind faith as the only "reason" underlying your beliefs. Your beliefs are foundationless, and ultimately you are left in the position of being unable to prove or disprove anything (in the rational sense).

You go on to state...

Biblical scripture is not a revelation from god and the same goes for any other religious text.

But, of course, if your assertions are nothing more than vain opinions, then the above lacks any force whatsoever. It is another assertion that you hold to by blind faith, nothing more. By separating yourself from the revelation of an all-knowing God (the only being that can have inherent, infallible, and true knowledge about the world and everything in it) you are, once again, left without a foundation for proving your assertions. Which leads us to your next assertion...

All of this gets back to a question of faith, which requires belief in something inherently unprovable.

Vain opinion is nothing more than belief in something you are unable to prove, and this is where your "blind" faith leads you. On the other hand, my faith in God's revelation gives me a foundation for true knowledge about the world, myself, our purpose, etc. As I stated above, when you deny His foundation, you are left with nothing more than man's myriad opinions with no way of proving or disproving any of them.

'I am an agnostic; I do not pretend to know what many ignorant men are sure of.'
Clarence Darrow

Sean, I don't know where to begin with your post. I apologize up front for the bluntness of my earlier comments. I realize that I may come across as radical to you and that I'm attacking your belief.

On the other hand, my faith in God's revelation gives me a foundation for true knowledge about the world, myself, our purpose, etc. As I stated above, when you deny His foundation, you are left with nothing more than man's myriad opinions with no way of proving or disproving any of them.

You appear to be caught up in a self-reinforcing form of dialectic ("brainwashing"). Keith has echoed similar statements, e.g., without god/jesus/bible there can be no truth/authority/morality. (My apologies to keith if I've mischaracterized). Some of you like to go unreachable places that cannot be discussed unless I swallow the right pill first.

I personally require tangible/verifiable evidence before I commit my life and worldview to a supernatural deity. You and others do not, and dive into a snug wormhole that there can be no evidence without god-- that the very notion is an extension of god's authority. So around we go, amigo.

You and others only require belief. You cultivate and forcefeed it as though deeper belief makes it more true. That is the only "force" behind your position-- that palpable thrill of embracing a worldview that gives you a sense of well being.

I originally stated that it's my opinion (vain or whatever), and yours is too. In effect I'm saying,"Let's agree to disagree." Let's go on peacefully from here and let time shape our views.

Even if it's from beyond the grave, please let me know where that wormhole opens up. You believe it will be heaven, and I believe it will be simply wormfood-central. For my part, if god or anything divine reveals itself to me, I will share it with you here, correct my statements and shrug off the doubters. In fact, I look forward to rejoicing as we draft the kool-aid as deeply as our god-given minds permit.

Peace.

So, Edoc, are you an empiracist (someone who believes that things must be tangibly validated and measured before belief can be established)? Do you think this is the best approach to life? Do you think so or KNOW so? Well, because you have already proclaimed that your opinions are "vain", I think that you have already answered that question. Ah, so for you, it all boils down to the (blind) belief that empiracism is the best approach to life. You didn't realize that all your life views were faith-based, now did you, Edoc?

I smell Buffy...

So, Edoc, are you an empiracist... things must be tangibly validated and measured before belief can be established

Not exactly sure what an empiracist is, but ok, maybe I'm an empiracist. I've been called worse. ;^) Speaking for myself, I require some form of evidence -- a personal intervention or event-- before I believe in something supernatural, whether it's god, UFOs, Santa Claus, Xenu or the virgin Mary on a grilled cheese sandwich.

According to the bible, god is all-powerful and all knowing, and knows even if a sparrow falls from the sky. Yet this god will not answer prayers or reveal his power to humanity. Tragic events happen with no apparent reason, and yet this is considered "part of god's plan" which we're not capable of grasping. We've got a book that hasn't been updated in two millenia, a collection of prayers, rites, rituals and ceremonies, all in the name of spiritual nourishment.

Sorry to disappoint- I'm not going to take part in a worldview/lifestyle based on anyone's word. I need more than that. As I said, if I get it, I'll let ya know all about it.

Edoc,

How do you know that God doesn't doesn't answer prayers?

In James 1:2-8, it says, "Count it a joy, my brothers, when you meet various trials, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness [perseverance]. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be made perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God who gives to all men generously and without reproaching, and it will be given to him. BUT LET HIM ASK IN FAITH, WITH NO DOUBTING, FOR HE WHO DOUBTS IS LIKE A WAVE OF THE SEA THAT IS DRIVEN AND TOSSED BY THE WIND. For that person must not suppose that a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways, will receive anything from the Lord." (emphasis added)

I must admit, that whole doubting thing is THE HARDEST thing that a person can deal with regarding relating to God, but coming to the Lord in an attitude of prayer is what determines whether you might RECOGNIZE an answer.

John 15 also addresses answered prayers:

(john 15:6-8)
"If a man does not abide in me, he is cast out as a vine and withers; and the branches are gathered and thrown into the fire and burned. If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you will and it shall be done for you. By this my Father is glorifie, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be my disciples."

It all comes down to this: ARE WE IN THE LORD WHEN WE PRAY FOR THESE BAD THINGS TO GO AWAY? James encourages counting these things a joy, as we grow closer in our relationship and dependance on HIM. This glorifies Christ. Christ loves us, but his actions are about GLORIFYING HIS FATHER, OUR FATHER, GOD IN HEAVEN.

I do not mean to start a religious debate against you. That is futile if your mind is set on winning. I must admit that I am no great debater. The only strength I have comes from Christ alone.

irene,

You cannot expect a non-Christian to understand these things.

Your intentions are good, but the only way for anyone to understand our point of view as Christians is to understand through the Holy Spirit. This outlook will not exist before salvation, and we cannot expect them to understand. That is almost mean. Think about it, you and I did not come to our current understanding through being preached at or through bible-whacking. Instead, it was revealed to us. Therefore, we cannot expect others to come to the realization by themselves as a response to a comment online.

I do thank you for keeping a humble attitude, though. I, too, owe all my stength to Christ.

> How do you know that God doesn't doesn't answer prayers?

I don't want to insult you, but can you point to any objective study that shows god does answer prayers? Of course you can't. Besides that would prove that god exists, thereby diminishing/erasing the need for faith.

Religious people tend to be experts at rationalizing everything with their faith in god. When you encounter a stroke of good fortune, you attribute it to god. When some stroke of bad luck happens, you attribute it to god. When no answer appears from god, you assume that god is waiting on you to act, or that god is testing you, etc. It is a manner of talking to yourself.

> You cannot expect a non-Christian to understand these things.

Nonsense. True, I'm not a christian. But I was brought up a christian and went to catholic schooling (through high-school), studied the Bible and practiced a christian life for for 30 years. So although we clearly don't agree about theology, it's not at all like I don't comprehend the christian faith or culture.

> I, too, owe all my stength to Christ.

No, you owe your strength to something akin to the placebo effect.