Keith Devens .com

Far be it for a mere mortal like me to presume to know the mind of God, but something doesn't ring true when examining spiritual doctrine taking in to account the Bible and various comments by distinguished biblical scholars. The kingdom of Heaven we were supposed to inherit as described by Jesus himself seems to differ quie a bit from our modern view. and a look into Art history of Europe demonstrates serious shifts in the Church's view of the afterlife. In light of several interpretations of God's word, and untrustworthy translations/transcriptions of His word, the only answers to be believed should come straight from the source. That is to say, reading a book on keeping one's children in the fold of the Church would seem less useful than prayer and meditation about God's true intentions, and discussion of spirituality and a relationship with God with one's children. For who can say God's faith still rests with the Church?

Huh?

ditto, Keith.

There was once a man trapped on his roof by rising flood waters. After a while, someone came floating by on a raft and said, "Come, and I will take you to safety." The man replied, "No, thank you. I have prayed to the Lord, and He will save me." Later, after the water had risen higher, someone came by in a boat and said, "Come into my boat, and I will take you to a safe place before the water overtakes you." Again the man replied, "No, for I have prayed earnestly to the Lord. He will surely save me." Finally, with the water having risen up to the man's neck, someone in a helicopter came by and said, "Hurry, and come aboard lest you drown!" And again, the man refused saying, "I have no need of your help. I have great faith that the Lord will save me." Soon the man drowned. When he stood before God he said, "Lord, I prayed earnestly with great faith for you to save me, but you did not. Why?" To which God replied, "I sent you a raft, a boat, and a helicopter. What more did you want?"

If you believe that God would convey His intentions to you through prayer and meditation, why do you presume the message received by the writers of the Scriptures is undiscernable or unreliable?

"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness." --2 Timothy 3:16

(I mean no disrespect to the victims of Hurricane Katrina)

Yes, yes, God helps those who help themselves, but traditional scripture has been handled by men for so long it feels like the God has fallen out of it. That's all I meant.

Yes, yes, God helps those who help themselves...

You know that's not in the Bible, right?

You know that's not in the Bible, right?

True but it's the condensed version of the story about the guy who died on his roof. It was also a delightful musical number in Shamus Culhame's animated Noah's Ark. And it's also an islamic parable in the form of "Trust in Allah, but lock up your camel at night." But I don't see what that has to do with anything.

I'm not sure what it has to do with anything either, but I wanted to make sure you didn't think that quote was from the Bible.

You are missing the point.

First, as Keith pointed out, the Bible does not say that God helps those that help themsleves. Quite the contrary. God helps those who can't help themselves. This is the message of the Gospel, that God did for Man what Man was unable to do for himself, namely, to pay the debt of his sin and to be reconciled to God. God did this through Jesus Christ.

Second, the little story I related is concerning the habit of God to work through the agency of Man. The Scriptures, though written through aegis of fallible Man, convey exactly the truth about God that God wanted to convey about his character and purpose. That is why I included the 2 Timothy reference.

OK, so I need to work on my "parables."

I hope didn't offend anyone, my only intention in posting initially was to disagree with the book's premise, that young people "leaving the church in droves" implies that young people do not have a relationship with God and as such are in danger of leaving their parents alone in heaven.
As a young man (mid twenties) it seems to myself and many of my peers that many established churches get very worked up over differences in interpretations of scripture or other canon, and that mabe it's just easier to develop a personal relationship with God based on daily inspirations and meditations.
I did not mean to imply that I see no value in scripture, nor that people who are part of organized churches are necessarily "blinded by technicalities" when dealing with those of other denominations/faiths.