Keith Devens .com

On the one hand I agree with him, but on the other hand I think it is a bit too one-sided.

But to you this is justification for staying blinkered from the truth. People with open minds are not completely undecided on moral issues. That is a trashy statement. Actually my own experience is different - those on that side are far worse than those on the other side. Why - I don't know. In Stevens' case I would say comfortable is bad. Never give up and accept comfort - strive for the truth 'coz that's what's gonna set you free mate. Not sleep inducing brain washing.

"blinkered from the truth"? "sleep inducing brain washing"?

Yes

Actually my own experience is different - those on that side are far worse than those on the other side.

I'm going to assume you didn't read Den Beste's full post and simply assumed he was talking about something like "left vs. right" or "liberal vs. conservative" or "American vs. European". Because what he was talking about were the terrorists and Islamic fascists that we're fighting. If you think that we're "far worse" than they are, then that's the type of moral degeneracy that Mr. Den Beste was writing about. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that's not what you meant. What were you talking about?

People with open minds are not completely undecided on moral issues. That is a trashy statement.

Did you mean to say that people with open minds are not completely decided on moral issues?

Sorry - to explain ... "blinkered from the truth": I believe that Christians have a narrow perspective on life. Don't you agree? Christians can only accept a certain way of looking at things that fits thier pre-defined outlook, set out repetitively at least once a week, according to acceptable standards of duty, in what could loosly be termed "brain washing".

That may not sit easily with you. After all, it's a negative take on something you hold dear. My manner is crude, but I believe what I say and I don't say it without consideration. I'm just striking a balance - this is the real world, and your statement to me is unbalanced, which is why I felt drawn to redress it.

You're aware that Den Beste is an atheist, correct?

OK I'm sorry - I got the totally wrong end of the stick here. I didn't read the full article linked to - I had the link open with several others marked to read - and whilst I found it mildly amusing and a bit long winded, didn't realise that it was the link from this post.

Why do I feel the need to post like this to your blog? Sorry for any offense caused. Must be something trying to get out! Apologies again. I do enjoy your blog really!

But it read well as a christian justification don't you think

Yeah, sure, because anyone who supports Bush and the war must of course be a religious zealot. Moron.

The person with the closed mind has clearly identified himself.

Mark,

I'm a Christian, and I disagree with the proposition that it was "correct" for US (and the UK, and Australia) to invade Iraq.

My wife and I get brain-washed twice a week. I send my children for extra brain-washing, and yet I still hold a very different view on this from my brother Christian, Keith. Amazing, huh?

To say that "Christians have a narrow perspective" is as silly and insulting as saying "Englishmen don't bathe."

Mark seems to be quite bigoted against Christians. I would also assume because of his anit-war sentiments that he is similarly bigoted against Jews. I would further postulate that he is probably indifferent toward Muslim violence against Hindus.

It seems that if the above is true he is close minded toward a large percentage of humanity.

Commenting on the quite disgusting comments left after my departure.

Ok - lets take my statement as it is, without reference to anything else, as it quite clearly doesn't relate...

IT IS a grave mistake, I believe, common to Christians, that they assume greater moral sensibilities than thier non Christian counterparts. This is a flawed standpoint, and is in my experience, way off from reality.

Alan: Christians DO have a narrow perspective. If you deny that then you deny that you have any concept of following a faith at all. Get over it.

Jim: You are one twisted individual. I am open minded about christians is all, that doesn't make me pro attrocities - caused in a so called lawfull manner by super powers or so called terrorism caused by much less powerful adversaries.

I keep finding this post in my refers occasionally, even after all this time. I didn't comment on it when it was new, but I always thought it was noteworthy.

Mark's sheer bigotry against Christians was itself noteworthy, but his defense, in his last post several months later (look at the timestamp) was even weirder. Basically, what he says is, it's not bigotry because the things I said about Christians really are true. (Besides which, he claims he really is open-minded about Christians, just after laying out yet more bigoted categorical statements about them.)

Even if those things were true, though, what had that to do with me? As Keith says, I'm an atheist. I've been an atheist since about the time I left college, likely before Mark was born. I'm not a Christian. And I never made any secret about that when I was posting about politics on USS Clueless.

It was strange that Mark felt the need to slander me without even bothering to read what I had written. And simply because he disliked my conclusion, he decided I was a Christian and thus could safely be ignored.

This is what passes for moral and intellectual clarity on the left. Me, I want no part of it.

Why should indecision be in league with moral degeneracy? You have stated the following:

"I do not rely upon peer opinion to decide what is right and what is wrong. I make those decisions for myself.."

You should rely on peer opinion, if your former ally in decision-making was a solid dose of patriotism. How can you think to counter a view such as: "that America is no better than the terrorists", with references to a brutally publicized murder, which happened as a result of an initiative to go to war in the first place. There is brutality all around the world, not least your neighboring continent South America. Are these people less moral than the pretty USA soldiers with their shiny SMG's? Neither are in effect, because they are all victims of a war initiative which you support.

"I am not a simple man or a simple thinker.." but "..there comes a time in every man's life when he has to choose sides"

You basically argue, in this quote, that those who do not jump on a bandwagon are likely to have an alternative motive for doing so. One of the simplest moral theories to be learnt is Egoism, which is basically the paradigm you're supporting. Philosophers rarely agree on anything, do you think they're all scared of the truth, selfishly over-exploring their topics to stave off an uncomfortable reality?

"1. Economically the only contribution they make is by selling natural resources which are available to them solely through luck."

Please explain to us how the industrialised nation that is the USA enjoys any of the economic and societal benefits available to its citizens today, by anything other than luck or chance. Lucky perhaps, that it was Europe and not Asia that developed and refined Capitalism. And you continue:

"2. They make little or no cultural contribution to the world. Few seek out their poetry, their writing, their movies or music."

And even more idiotically:

"5. They are not respected by the world, or by themselves."

Mr Den Beste I am a philosophy graduate from South Africa, and this is little more than propaganda. If anything, your fifth point most vehemently applies to your own country, which has publicly expressed long-term controversies over such government initiatives.

Of course, I do not judge an entire country by the actions of its government; and I realise that deterministically, the superpower nations will be the most harshly judged and critised. But the pseudo-intellectuals that jump on the bandwagon, and start claiming that inaction is a sign of moral degeneracy, these are the people who suffer international disrespect.

Have a pleasant war, Mr Den Beste.