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Keith Devens .com

Monday, October 13, 2008 Flag waving
I would rather be an optimist and be wrong than a pessimist who proves to be right. The former sometimes... – "Hoots"
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Daily link icon Thursday, April 22, 2004

News/politics Links

  • This political cartoon at American Realpolitik showing Sharon inviting the next Hamas leader to take a seat in his grave is excellent. If you keep killing the leaders of Hamas, people will start to become reluctant to take up the position (That's why the new leader has tried to keep himself secret). For all the talk about the "cycle of violence", the attacks against Israel have been going down because of Israel's response.
  • Andrew Sullivan relays a great letter from a chaplain in Iraq.
  • Matt Wretchard has more on the history of Fallujah
  • Three Purple Hearts and not a day of duty lost?
  • Backward, Spanish Soldiers
  • Stuff on UNSCAM at Wunderkinder. I can understand someone being against the war in Iraq based on principle (I'm not quite sure what those principles would be, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt). But anyone who was against the war in Iraq mainly because the U.N. didn't approve a final authorization for war must (or at least should!) feel really dumb now after finding out that the U.N. and many member nations who opposed the war were on the take and benefitted from keeping Saddam's regime in power.
  • Earth Day: Has the environmental movement left the world behind?
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Comments XML gif

Micah wrote:

Let me give you an example of principles that would cause one to oppose (the) war, then:

1) the right to give and take away human life is God's alone, and
2) the only moral uprightness a person is qualified to judge is their own.

∴ Micah | 22-Apr-2004 8:12pm est | #4404

Keith (http://keithdevens.com/) wrote:

the only moral uprightness a person is qualified to judge is their own.

That's a silly moral principle. If that were true, then evil and good would be purely subjective concepts. Ethics would be impossible.

Both of your principles are so general that they don't have anything to do with the Iraq war.

Keith | 22-Apr-2004 8:21pm est | http://keithdevens.com/ | #4405

Micah wrote:

Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart. (1 Samuel 16:7b)

The principle you quote is based on this verse. How can I know anybody else's intentions? I am forgiven but I am still a sinner, so how I judge other sinners? And what responsibility do I have to ensure the correct behavior of my fellow man? None, because I do not know his heart. In the end, the only person I am responsible for is myself.

Under this principle, George Bush would have no right to judge Sadam Husain's heart and intentions because God reserves that right for himself. Furthermore, applying the first principle means that soldiers in general are barred from killing, which is directly related to the war.

General principles are important for me, because they enforce consistency across different areas of my life.

∴ Micah | 22-Apr-2004 8:39pm est | #4406

Keith (http://keithdevens.com/) wrote:

You're quoting one verse out of context from the rest of the Bible to support your very strange and philosophically untenable principle. It infuriates me that you would use the Bible this way by cherry-picking a verse and trying to use it "against me" because you know I give fealty to it. Even so, that verse doesn't even support your general principle (especially not in context)!

And, I can cherry-pick verses too:

The purposes of a man's heart are deep waters, but a man of understanding draws them out.

Even a child is known by his actions, by whether his conduct is pure and right.

A wise king winnows out the wicked; he drives the threshing wheel over them.

Those are all just from Proverbs 20.

Now, it's prima facie absurd to say that we can't judge Hitler or Saddam Hussein's moral characters. Not only does the view you've espoused entail complete pacifism (which the Bible doesn't support either), but, based on your line of reasoning, punishing anyone for anything would be impossible.

Under this principle, George Bush would have no right to judge Sadam Husain's heart and intentions because God reserves that right for himself.

It has nothing to do with his heart and intensions, but his actions. And the verse you quote says nothing about God "reserving" the right to make moral judgements for himself.

Furthermore, applying the first principle means that soldiers in general are barred from killing, which is directly related to the war.

If you're a pacifist, why don't you just say so? "I'm a pacifist. All wars are wrong, therefore the Iraq war is wrong." You could say it once and it would waste much less time.

General principles are important for me, because they enforce consistency across different areas of my life.

If you're looking for consistency, you should start by maintaining a consistent view of the Bible, if you actually do believe it yourself and aren't just quoting it as a way to score points with me.

Keith | 22-Apr-2004 9:47pm est | http://keithdevens.com/ | #4407

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