Keith Devens .com

Glad you think that a country losing its national tresures is a minor thing. Wonderful that 4 artifacts were found.

Good thing we protected the oil ministry so no one would loot that. (repeat mantra - it was NOT about oil)

NEW SLOGAN: America - we're so big and powerful that we couldn't possibly be wrong (when a Republican is in office).

Personally I'm still pretty unimpressed by the failure to find any weapons of mass destruction. That was the original reason given for invading after all.

Simon, I agree. It seems that we've found some minor things, but the general consensus is that we haven't found a "smoking gun" like barrels of anthrax, etc.

However, it's only been a few weeks, and we have lots of people in custody who're talking, plus we've found tens of thousands of pages of documentation of things which it's going to take a long time to go through. We also don't know what our government's learned from these sources that hasn't been released yet. 6 months or a year from now if we're in the same situation I won't be happy, but still, it's only been a few weeks.

One final note though: It seems that it's the same people who wanted to give the inspectors months and months more time who are whining all over the place because we haven't found anything in a few weeks.

It's a bit early to wave your hands in triumph there Keith. The article states that inventory is far from over, honestly now...

Even some of the LGF readers were smart enough to realize the process is ongoing, and that the initial list is probably some of the more valuable items. Who mistakes 170,000 for a few dozen??? Common sense there. The reality is probably a few hundred to several thousand. Which is a damn shame. Also note that the records/documentation of existing artifacts was in poor condition due to lack of funds, info linked.

http://www.post-gazette.com/World/20030417museumswp4.asp

If you look around it's easy to find some fairly level headed reports

This article links to a Database being built by historians aiming to catalugue what was supposed to be in the museum. They just started and it's already in the thousands. Keep in mind most museums tend to rotate items and only a few hundred may be on display at any one time. It's likely based on eyewitness reports I've read of the museum being "stripped bare" that at least the display items were hit hardest.

http://www.museumstuff.com/cgi-bin/details.cgi?id=news95791050781121

and another (50,000 - 200,000)
http://www.museumstuff.com/cgi-bin/details.cgi?id=news228281051425327

As to WMDs, I agree that we need to be patient, It's why I havn't bothered talking about it. But why are you suprised man people are now in a hurry? We've done a serious thing here. We killed hundreds of people (some good, some bad, most just ordinary people), overthrew a regime, and invaded a country. Acts like that tend to stir things up a good deal more then just suspecting a nation of carrying WMDs. Common sense there really. Frankly some will show up, one way or another. My biggest gripe is why weren't chemical/biological weapons used against the US if Iraq had them in it's arsenal? They had more then enough motivation to use them. The only logical conclusions are 1) They were afraid of international reaction 2) They didn't have them to use. As the situation in Baghdad became so bad for them, I can't imagine reason 1 having much sway on the issue. It's not like Saddam cared about the safety of his people and troops.

As for the last statement, your coming off a bit cocky. We won this war easily due to a damn good army, but also due to a real lack of resistance in the final hours. It could have gone much worse and both you and I know it. One riged nuke at the center of baghdad as a farewell present could have turned this into a disaster. It's not a matter of having less to be mad about, all my original objections still stand. It's more honest to say it could have gone a good deal worse.

Well aren't you just a fountain of information I'll check out the links in a little bit. I just wanted to say this:

it could have gone a good deal worse.

Absolutely! Which is basically my point. That's why I get so fed up with people nit-picking about this or that, like some things stolen from a museum (which I am mad about, but my point is that it's small in the scheme of things), or that some people there still hate us, because it loses the perspective of what's been accomplished and how well things really went. I'm thankful it didn't go worse, because you're right, it certainly could have.

Acts like that tend to stir things up a good deal more then just suspecting a nation of carrying WMDs.

Not sure what you mean there.

Frankly some will show up, one way or another.

Yeah, my feelings too. The people who stole didn't do it to have nice things to put in their living rooms. They did it to sell. And like we've already found some things being sold, we'll find others.

My biggest gripe is why weren't chemical/biological weapons used against the US if Iraq had them in it's arsenal? They had more then enough motivation to use them. The only logical conclusions are 1) They were afraid of international reaction 2) They didn't have them to use.

I agree that reason one doesn't make sense. But the third reason is that maybe the command structure wasn't in place to authorize it, or fourth, that knowing they were going to lose, the people who actually had to pull the trigger (or push the button or whatever) didn't want to do it, or fifth, that we were able to stop them ahead of time, just like we were able to stop a whole host of other bad things from happening that we expected to happen, like thousands of oil wells being set on fire, oil being released into the sea to create an ecological disaster (which we know we stopped), etc.

"Absolutely! Which is basically my point. That's why I get so fed up with people nit-picking about this or that"

Ah, but because it didn't go worse, it doesn't mean the screwups that happend are any less important. We differ there. It's like a chart I saw showing that while Russia and China contributed 80%-90% of the weopons and the USA only 1%-2%. Now some people were thrilled by this. Of course what went through my mind was something like "Gee, so we sold thousands of weopons to Iraq, and you expect me to feel better because others were worse?". As someone who loves my country I expect a good deal better then that... That's just me though.

"Not sure what you mean there."
I thought I was clear but I'll try again. Many people wanted to give the inspectors more time because no one was activally dying. Now that we've gone and had a war and killed people and changed a country, many people are eager to make sure we did the right thing. Simply for the reason that it's To Late to fix things if it was a mistake. I know that can be hard for some to grasp. You'll be reminded of my argument against the deathpenalty I'm sure.

"But the third reason is that maybe the command structure wasn't in place to authorize it"

The command structure argument is a good one, I should have included it. I think if Saddam was killed that's an extremely likely scenario. This would also explain the very weak resistance at the end. I'm holding off judgement without more good info.

"The people who actually had to pull the trigger (or push the button or whatever) didn't want to do it"

Personal Opinion, a harsh dictatorship breads harsh, cruel people. I don't think finding the right buttonpusher would have been tough. Gut feeling there.

"fifth, that we were able to stop them ahead of time"

If nuclear weapons were available, I don't think that's likely, more likely with chemicals though but I think then the likely hood of catching them in the act would have been fairly good and we'd know one way or the other if WMDs were on hand.

"oil being released into the sea to create an ecological disaster (which we know we stopped)"
Heh, yeah... Bush was worried for the dolphins.. Seriously that's funny. At best it was a military decision, more likely an economic one. Call my a cynic.

Good article with more info:
http://www.iht.com/articles/95002.html

Basically a mix of a ton saved or retrieved with heavy loss here and there. Few thousand religious documents burned down, several thousand artifacts moved out just before the war started. It's a real mish-mash of good and bad.

Regarding the finding of WMD - http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer...yFT&cid=1051389722750&p=1012571727088

Excerpted - "...the senior administration official insisted the US never expected to find a huge arsenal. He said the US was more concerned by Mr Hussein's team of 1,000 scientists, whom he termed "nuclear mujahadeen". These scientists, he argued, could have restarted Iraq's weapons programme once the crisis passed
...
the administration will act against a hostile regime that has nothing more than the intent and ability to develop weapons of mass destruction."

The foreign policy at work is positively mind boggling.