Keith Devens .com

Ah, so "Idiotarian" is defined as "someone I don't agree with". Thanks for clearing that up.

Think what you want. If you agree with what he says you're as confused about reality as he is.

To me, what makes someone an idiotarian is a lack of moral clarity. To view the situation in Israel at all like Apartheid shows a lack of moral clarity and simply an ignorance of both history and current affairs. To call Israel "bullies" ignores the reality of the situation in the middle east, and furthermore serves to excuse Palestinian behavior.

You may be interested to read An Anti-Idiotarian Manifesto by Eric Raymond, and this neat list of You Might Be an Idiotarian If... which will illustrate some bits of what can characterize "idiotarianism" Finally, a search on Little Green Footballs for "idiotarian" will bring up some posts that show how the word is typically used in practice.

What is Israel then if they are not "bullies"?

If you're claiming they're bullies, why do you think so? I've personally never seen anything that would make me think Israel behaved with anything but restraint.

When they sent people into Jenin to root out terrorists there, for instance, they sent people in on foot to make sure they had as little "collateral damage" as possible. They were then ambushed by children and killed with booby trapped buildings, and Israel lost almost as many soldiers as they killed terrorists.

Israel has against Arafat's compound because he supports terrorism, they've recently closed schools which glorify "martyrs" (read: murderers) and spread hate, etc.

Anyway, I've personally been amazed at the restraint Israel has shown over the past few years of the "intifada". What makes you think they are bullies?

The fact that they decided to take over palestine as their own country. The fact they pushed the palestinians out of their own homes. The fact the palestinians are now effectively imprisoned in parts of their own country. The fact the palestinians have no voice any longer.

I'm not calling the palestinians blameless, but they are not without cause for some of their actions. I can highly recommend reading <a href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0719556015/">Holy Land, Unholy War</a> for a pretty much unbiased view from both sides of the conflict.

No side is blameless, most definately not the Israeli's.

I guess reading your comment note may have helped with that url, woops. Holy Land, Unholy War should work better.

Neat, I'll try to take a look at that book the next time I'm in a bookstore.

Re your reference to "[Israel taking] over palestine as their own country": You may want to check out The Palestinian's Myth, which I linked before.

Israel was created as a result of the work of the United Nations right after WWII. Jews were offered a state in the region, and so were Arabs. The Jews accepted and Israel was formed, but the Arabs rejected the deal (and have rejected other deals since (like at Camp David)) simply because they refuse to admit Israel's right to exist. Right after Israel was formed, it was attacked by all its Arab neighbors. It won.

Since then, land it has taken was taken not as an act of Israeli imperialism, like your comments would suggest, but rather as land taken in wars that Israel did not start.

The current situation can be blamed on no one else but the Palestinians themselves. Arabs live in Israel peacefully and are equal citizens. Really, Arabs have more rights in Israel than they do in any Muslim country. Rather than live peacefully with Israel, the Palestinians choose to support suicide bombers who kill innocent civilians. They indoctrinate their children to hate Israel -- the problem is that the Palestinians deny Israel's right to exist, and there will never be peace in the region until they grant that.

Part of the problem is that Islam claims that the land belongs to Muslims and not Jews -- in fact Muslims refuse to admit, contrary to history, that the Jewish Temple stood in Jerusalem on the Temple Mount. Islam teaches that Ishmael, not Isaac, was chosen by God, etc. Islam presents a distorted view of history, and as long as people believe in it there is no chance of peace in the region.

P.S. The first comment on this article from Kuro5hin, while ranty, I think is pretty dead on. Also, this resource on the history of Israel from Homework Central seems pretty good.

I wouldn't use the expression "restraint" to describe Israel invading Lebanon, massacring lebanese and palestinians at sabra and chatila, or assinating faris odeh .
I'm not saying by any means that the palestinians are right, and certainly not that intifada is right. However to say that israel has shown restraint is perhaps one of the stupidest things I have ever heard. I mean this is the country that on june the 5th 1967 launced a "preemptive strike" on palestine, egypt and syria.
This restrained nation also went to war against an entire country because it was habouring a group of terrorist (sounds familiar?) and in the process blew up the newly completely power stations in beirut (hey the terrorists where using that power as well), destroyed a clearly marked ambulance (apparently the terrorists where using white cars as well) and bombed a UN base killing 104 refuges and 4 UN soldiers (apparently their maps where out of date and someone was firing a mortar down the round)
amnesty international piece on it.
Oh and on a more personal note in the first invasion of Lebabon by the israelis they almost killed my (non-terrorist supporting) parents and brother.