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Daily link icon Thursday, December 5, 2002

religion

Graham Glass on religion: "... they can't all be right. so someone, or everyone, is wrong about some pretty important stuff."

Yah.

christianity doesn't say "hey, what we're really all about is loving each other and worshipping an abstract god", they say "the bible is the word of god and it's all correct". ditto for many other religions. since the texts of these various books are in conflict, they can't all be right.

The way some people choose to argue for Christianity is like this: Which book gives you a view of reality that makes sense?

For instance, the Koran contradicts the Old and New Testaments all over the place, yet it claims to be from the same God. Muslim's claim that the Old and New Testaments have been corrupted wherever they and the Koran disagree. Their god is a god who lets his own word get corrupted... how can we even know that the Koran itself isn't corrupted now? One of the problems with Islam is that Allah is a God who can't be trusted.

caring for others and being a generally nice human being doesn't have anything to do with religion - it's just common sense. not being religious doesn't detract whatsoever from my feeling of awe when i look into a clear night sky, swim with the fish in my scuba gear, or ponder life when standing in a cathedral.

This is what Christianity generally calls "natural revelation". This goes under the part about making sense. The Bible says, "Look, we're all made in the image of God, and this is his creation". That's why we can appreciate beauty, do science, understand each other and our world, etc.

However, another part of the "giving you a view of reality that makes sense" aspect of religion is this: Christianity justifies our conceptions of morality, of science, etc. What I'm saying is that the common ground you referred to actually only makes sense upon the Christian view of reality.

For instance, what we think is "moral" are only the conventions of men, and incapable of binding the conscience of any man... unless Christianity is true. Similarly, the Christian worldview gives us a basis for science, whereas the typically held mishmash of views, that of a deterministic but yet random universe where order somehow comes from disorder, life comes from non-life, rational beings come from inanimate chemicals, where we have no philosophically justified reason to believe we can even trust our senses or know that the future will be like the past so as to enable scientific inquiry, destroys what we intuitively believe to be true, as well as what we need to be true to have a view of reality that makes sense.

One of the things my (one) Christian friend and I enjoy telling people (atheists) is that we don't have as much faith as they do Smiley Their view of reality is so incoherent and unexplained that we think it takes a lot more faith to believe in than Christianity does.

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James (http://www.ordinary-life.net) wrote:

"What I'm saying is that the common ground you referred to actually only makes sense upon the Christian view of reality."

True in the west, because like it or not as an atheist myself, a dominant influence in our society has been Christianity. If you go to another part of the world you get a totally contrary view on many issues. Personally I always thought Buddhism a decent "reality". Others have what I consider pretty crappy ones but I'm not them.

"Their view of reality is so incoherent and unexplained"
You say that like its a bad thing. My beef with religion is that it ties up all the really hard questions with simple and easy answers that you aren't supposed to question or doubt. It's much harder to be an atheist in that we don't get those nice simple pre-packed answers that comfort you at night, or on your deathbed. We choose the harder rode, personally I think that makes some of us better men then if we just accepted what others told us. Doesn't mean all atheist are good, as many crumble under the pressure.

Morals are that grey area, one of the problems I have is that a book dictates religious morals and often doesn't look at the individual. Look how many Christians did silly things like bash gays, burn witches and all other manner of what I consider to be immoral things. The value of particular religious group is not the value of the book followed but the behavior of the majority of its followers, and of course this changes from decade to decade.

∴ James | 5-Dec-2002 11:50pm est | http://www.ordinary-life.net | #1075

Keith (http://www.keithdevens.com/) wrote:

There are plenty of hard questions within Christianity. I think Christianity is much harder in a lot of ways than Atheism is. I'd much rather believe that people who die just cease to exist rather than that some go to hell. I think it's much harder to live life knowing that you have a Holy God to answer to than it is thinking that what you do is important only to yourself. And Christians still have to deal with most of the issues atheists do (having a sense of purpose, deciding right from wrong, living day to day in a harsh world, etc.) And even though we're not supposed to "question or doubt", those are still very real issues Christians have to deal with. I personally think I had things much easier when I was an atheist.

How much more real is regret when you know you're going to live forever, and that things matter for eternity? I still view half of myself as an atheist (when I think I think in terms of both worldviews... I've been on both sides), and I'm pretty convinced being a believer is harder.

Keith | 6-Dec-2002 12:51am est | http://www.keithdevens.com/ | #1076

James (http://www.ordinary-life.net) wrote:

Who said atheist didn't worry about what happens after they are dead (obviously they worry before it happens)? The key difference is a religious person worries about their immortal soul a great deal more. I worry about the people I left behind not myself, I'm dead after all. Your perception that atheist = "what you do is important only to yourself" is just plain wrong. If anything I care more about others in the long run (I don't want to come off saintly here, ugh).

How much more real is regret when you know you're forgiven and still loved no matter what? When you know one day your loved ones will join you in heaven. How much harder is it to deal with the fact that this life is all you have and you don't get a second chance, redemption or unconditional love. That every thing must be earned or fought for. That when you die if your right you don't exist, and if your wrong according to some religion's your going to hell or some such bad place.

∴ James | 6-Dec-2002 1:03am est | http://www.ordinary-life.net | #1077

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